Curse

Ryuken Tamashi · Nov 12, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Concept Class by Ryuken #3

Concept Class: The Adroit

Short History: Hidden in their compact labs, they study the usage and ideals of minerals. Many people do not know of their existence or their purpose. Even the very few people, who know of them, think of their doing as child play. Nevertheless, they do not know that these unique and extremely educated people will come across the essence of destruction itself. They are the Alchemists.

These Alchemists were so independent of the common folk, that they slowly began making a religion of themselves. They thought that combining the right mixture of elements could cause immortality. The headmaster of these Alchemists gave them a challenge, which was that everyone was from now on to combine any elements they could find and test subjects were to drink it.

After more than ten years passed, still nothing had become of the fortune of immortality, only death. However, two very special Alchemists thought to be the best of the best, finally came with the potion that everyone has been seeking. That potion was intensely hard to make. Therefore could only produce minimal quantity. They have said that it would take another five years until the substance could be more cleverly reproduced. Even though this substance wasn’t quite ready, these Alchemists certified that the combination of Sulfur, Charcoal, and Saltpeter is a mystical creation, and let out small wondrous sparks.

Still the King was unhappy with the ordeal, but he knew that he was at the end of his days and only wanted to livelonger and nothing else. Therefore, he beckoned for the potion and drank it. Beats of sweat began to circulate over the king’s forehead, and once the small drop of powder reached the soft tongue, something horribly happened.

His whole head exploded into pieces, and the creators were banished and sentenced to execution. Still, most people began to wonder, if that element were to be used in the right way, it could act as a powerful tool. After countless of failed experiments to control this substance, they finally created the right form to do so. It was then called the firearm.

The Alchemist decided then, that the time of being an Alchemist is over, and a new era of an Adroit has awakened. As their goal is to prove the unethical people that, an Alchemist is much more than what they predicted. Then the mountainous stone stummit dwarves came across the place were the alchemists studied and stole all of their experiments…including the gun-powder. It was then that these dwarves learned how to use them, and slowly Tyria is learning about this substance, and began to steal it for themselves.
(Definition of the Word Adroit; Someone who is skillful, clever, adept, and dexterous.)

Two new hexes are would be introduced for the Adroit.
a)Fear= Fear is a hex which makes the enemy run in fear for a limited time
b) Baffled= an effect which temporarily blurs your whole screen and does –3 health degeneration. (Remember mission 2 in Night Fall?)

1) Overall Basis of the Adroit: The Adroit is a range attacker, who specializes in the art of simple medieval type guns and basic firearms. Because they are Alchemists they also know how to quickly brew simple potions, which can enhance your gun, stats, and can even deal some damage. Lastly, because Adroits like to be manipulative, they are masters of delusion and can manipulate stats, and hexes to their liking.

2) Main Weapon Of the Adroit: the main weapon will be the gun. It will act as a one-handed weapon, and your off-handed hand will be free.

-ATTRIBUTE DESCRIPTION-

-Gun Mastery- The most common question that will come up in this gun topic is “Guns simply wouldn’t fit into a medieval game like guild wars.” I understand how you might be right about this; however, I would never recommend a concept class if it simply couldn’t happen. Moreover, this is proving that guns DID exist in medieval times http://www.castles-of-britain.com/castle36.htm. Now back to the topic: although you could theoretically say that bows are not nearly as effective as guns, this theory could be wrong with the very first handheld guns. As these early guns tended to be very unstable, the powder would go off for no apparent reason. This is what I would put into the class to differ them from the bows. From how looks go, I would probably want them to be similar to this type http://www.a2armory.com/images/bests...lunderbuss.jpg

-Fire Arm- By firearm I don’t mean mechanical robots or turrets etc (Trying to make it as realistic as possible). I really mean the very basic and simple firearm such as cannons and using the powder as the bombs. Most of the skills will be very gunpowder based.

-Alchemy- This attribute will need an ingredient. However, so I don’t make this class all too complicated, there will only be four ingredients. These ingredients will randomly drop by ALL monsters. This will require you to pick up the ingredient, and then it will be received in the inventory section. You may buy different potions from the skill trainer, but you cannot activate the potion as if it were a skill. Instead, a small window will appear in combat, and it will list all the potions you currently have. From there, you pick your potion then drop it on the ground. To activate it, you need to click on the potion and you will receive its effects. The reason why I did that is so other party members can also pick it up. How do you “make” a potion? You can make the potion by clicking the potion you want to make in the skills list, (under alchemy section) then it will say the required ingredients, and if you have the right amount then it will be shown as green, if not then it will show as gray. You can see what ingredients it needs at the description section. NOTE: that you can only drop 1..2..3..4 potions at a time. And once that number is over you’ll face a cool-down of 60..50..40..30 seconds. And you can only make 5..8..12..15..18 potions.

-Delusion- Delusion deals with hexes from enemies/party members and simply manipulating them. Enchants, and degeneration is included in this to this topic. Besides, from manipulating, you will also have attacks in which you can gain +health +energy and is meant to be more of that extra push to win a fight. Like tactics for warrior or energy storage for elementalists.

Stats of the Adroit
Health=500
Energy=35
Energy Regeneration +4

Some Images of how the armor would look like (not final)

Head Armor=Goggles
http://www.final-fantasy.it/cloud_goggles_2.jpg

Body Armor= (look only at the pirate in the middle, it’s his torso and mantle look that I would want the Adroit to look like)
http://www.mables.com/halloween/prod...te-costume.jpg

Hand Armor=
http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/a9/2c/03_2.JPG

Leg Armor=
http://www.costumeshopper.com/Mercha...8634-58633.jpg

Foot Armor=
http://www.houseofanoria.com/boots_h...g_bootcvr4.jpg

Now that I am done, talking about the basic information of the Adroit, it is time for the skills. Please Note that the skills, which I am going to list, serve only for the purpose of those quick readers who want to know the overall view of the class. For more skills, please go to the Edits section.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I will use the term “Baffled” several times in my skills. I made the name up for guild wars, but in-game the baffled condition will make the whole screen blurry. (Remember Mission two in Nightfall?)

-Attribute Skills-Gun Mastery

-Hex Shot-
Energy-10 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-10
All your hexes are removed and shot out of you gun. Enemies dmged by the gun receives the hex.

-Aimed Target-
Energy-10 Activation-X Regeneration-15
You may click on 3 targets. You shoot your gun twice at each target. 60%..40%..30%..20%..10% chance you deal your self twice your normal gun dmg. This chance applies three times. (since your shooting three times).

-One Shot-
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Regneration-2
You shoot target enemy for 20..40..60 dmg. 30%..20%..10% chance you deal your self 20..30..40..60 dmg.

-Pellet Shower-
Energy-15 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You shoot to the sky and small pellets rain over target enemy. Striking target enemy and adjacent enemies for 20..40..60..70 dmg. And blinding them for 2..4..6..7 seconds. 60%..40%..20% chance you deal yourself 10..20..40..60 dmg. And you become baffled for 3..4..5 seconds. (the stronger your dmg deals the longer the baffle effect.)

-ELITE-Mastered Shot-
Energy-25 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You become instantly baffled when using this attack for 5..6..7..8 seconds. You deal all enemies in earshot range 20..40..60..80 dmg and take all of their enchants to yourself for 5..8..10..12 seconds.

-Attribute Skills- Firearm-

-Powder Wrappings-
Energy-10 Activation-2 Regeneration-5
You take paper and stuff some gunpowder in it. (there is no ingredients required for any of the firearm skills, just how it will look like). You may throw five of these bombs at any target 5 times. You deal 10..20..25 dmg each time.

-Detonation Bomb-
Energy-25 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-15
You may place 1..2..3..4 gunpowder traps anywhere you would like. Pressing the skill again will activate all the bombs. Each bomb causes 10..20..30..50 dmg. Caution that if party members step into the trap, it will explode dealing ½ 10..20..30..50 dmg and causes baffle for 2..3..4 seconds.

-Apply Gunpowder-
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-2
Touch. Touch one party member and you apply some blinding gunpowder to their weapon. (Includes wands and staffs). For 2..4..6 seconds that party member becomes baffled for 5..4..3..2 seconds. But they deal blindess on enemy for 3..4..5 seconds and deal 5%..10%..15%..20%..more dmg for 3..4..6..7 seconds.
-ELITE-Trebuchet-
Energy-15 Activation-4 Regeneration-10
You create 1..2..3..4 small trebuchet (human size) and you may place any keg related skills, and drop it into the trebuchet. This has thrice the normal bow range.

-Attribute Skills-Alchemy-

-Healing Potion-
Required Ingredients>1 of <name>
You are healed for +10...+20..+30..+40

-Elixir-
Required Ingredients>1 of <name> and one of <name>
One health degeneration effect is immediately removed.

-Absorbing Hex-
Required Ingredients>2 of <name>
1 of a party member suffering from hex (also you) is removed and stored in this bottle for 4..6..8..10 seconds. At the end of duration all hexes are put on you again.

-ELITE-Gunpowder Mix-
Required Ingredients>1 of <name> and <name> and <name> and <name>
You may drop on 3 gunpowder traps a very deadly liquid. When enemy is dmged by the trap, the trap does lightning dmg for 10..20..30..40 dmg and causes crippling to foes nearby.

-Attribute Skills-Delusion (all delusion spells will look yellow)

-Party Hex Absorption-
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-10
All hexes on your party members immediately transfer to you.

-Dellusionist hex-
Energy-10 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-10
Target enemy, and all enemies nearby him are hexed with fear and therefore run for 1..2..3..4 seconds.

-Healing Delusion-
Energy-15 Activation-4 Regeneration-15
You create a transparent fountain, and ally adjacent to it, is healed for +1..+2..+4..+6. And have a 20%..30%..40%..50%..60%..70% chance to block all attacks (including magic) Lasts for 4..6..8..10 seconds. At end of duration all party members who healed from the fountain become poisoned for –1..-2..-3 regeneration which lasts for 2..4..6 seconds.

-ELITE-Manipulative Condition-
Energy-20 Activation-6 Regeneration-10
You remove all conditions from party members and instead apply them to you. All the condition is then transferred towards target enemy.

EDITS!!!!!!
This section deals with new skills I produced, and also the skills which I was recommended to input.

NEW GUN MASTER EDITS:

Fearing Blasts
Energy-15 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You shoot all adjacent enemies near you, causing 10..20..30 dmg each and fear for 1..2..3..4 seconds. 50%..40%..30%..20% chance you cause buffle to yourself.

NEW FIREARM EDITS:

Keg Explosion
You drop four kegs in front of you. All of them will go off in 15 seconds. You can place them anywere and when they go off they do 10..20..30 dmg each. If you place them next to gunpowder traps or into Trebuchets they will do 1/3 more dmg.

-ELITE-Apply Fire-
Energy-15 Activation-4 Regeneration-10
For 10 seconds all your attacks (including bombs/gunpowder/bullets) causes burning for
-1..-2..-3..-4..-5.. regeneration.

NEW ALCHEMY EDITS:

Keg Transformation
Energy-10 Activation-4 Regeneration-5
You make a vile of poisonous substance and place it onto kegs. Doing –1..-2..-3 degeneration.

Minor Energy
Required Ingredients 2 of <name>
You gain +15 energy.

NEW DELUSION EDITS:

Battle Reversal
Energy-25 Activation-3/4 Restoration-10
All combat dmg/hex/condition dealt to your party members are redirected to one enemy sharing with all enemies in earshot from him. This lasts for 2..3..4..5..6 seconds.

Energy Gain
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Restoration-5
Touch. Touch enemy interrupting their spell or skill. If you interrupted them you receive 1/8...1/7…1/5…1/4…1/2 of their energy.

Thank you for reading my whole idea and I’d appreciate some feedback on it.

Although I don’t mind any kind of feedback, I would like that instead of telling me that (for example) my class is just way too overpowered, give me some info on what skills and attacks you find overpowering. That way I can make improvements :P.

-Ryuken

Ryuken Tamashi · Nov 14, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

No suggestions?? I'd appreciate any kind of feed back really. I just want to know what you guys who viewed this post think about it.

Dean Harper · Nov 14, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

i have to say, again, that this prof id pretty cool, though i hate alchemy and guns in GW. The delusion attribute seems like a whole mesmer/necro packed into one attribute (removing conditions and putting them on urself, and energy gain...) so you need to make a new attribute that is really unique.

anubis_master · Nov 14, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

i like it i only read half way through cuz it long and i dont have time but one upgrade i noticed u nedded to lessen the cheapness

-ELITE-Mastered Shot-
Energy-25 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You become instantly baffled when using this attack for 5..6..7..8 seconds. You deal all enemies in earshot range 20..40..60..80 dmg and take all of their enchants to yourself for remander of the enchantment time for up to 5..8..10..12 seconds.

Ryuken Tamashi · Nov 14, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Harper

i have to say, again, that this prof id pretty cool, though i hate alchemy and guns in GW. The delusion attribute seems like a whole mesmer/necro packed into one attribute (removing conditions and putting them on urself, and energy gain...) so you need to make a new attribute that is really unique.

thanks for you input, I still think GW is missing guns and the alchemy so that's the reason why I put it there. And I wanted delusion to be sort of what you described since it's main feature is really firearms and guns. But isn't alchemy, gun mastery, and firearms unique though?? I agree that a few things in delusion may seem the same like n/mes but the difference is the fact that you can put ALL of the hexes and shoot them out of your gun towards the enemy. I don't think (besides the gun part) the mesmer has such skills correct?

Ryuken Tamashi · Nov 14, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by anubis_master

i like it i only read half way through cuz it long and i dont have time but one upgrade i noticed u nedded to lessen the cheapness

-ELITE-Mastered Shot-
Energy-25 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You become instantly baffled when using this attack for 5..6..7..8 seconds. You deal all enemies in earshot range 20..40..60..80 dmg and take all of their enchants to yourself for remander of the enchantment time for up to 5..8..10..12 seconds.

Well actually It isn't as overpowered as you may think. Let's compare this to meteor shower for example. Meteor shower has the 20..50 dmg and it lasts I think like for 5 seconds or so. Instead of dealing all that much dmg instead this attacks draws away enchantments. Since both skills have the same amount of energy and this spell takes 1 sec longer then meteor shower, I am not sure what's too overpowering about it. But if you find anything else tell me. AND ontop of all that it's an elite and meteor shower is not.

Dean Harper · Nov 15, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuken Tamashi

Well actually It isn't as overpowered as you may think. Let's compare this to meteor shower for example. Meteor shower has the 20..50 dmg and it lasts I think like for 5 seconds or so. Instead of dealing all that much dmg instead this attacks draws away enchantments. Since both skills have the same amount of energy and this spell takes 1 sec longer then meteor shower, I am not sure what's too overpowering about it. But if you find anything else tell me. AND ontop of all that it's an elite and meteor shower is not.

Meteor Shower lasts for 9 seconds, and every 3 seconds, target is knocked down and takes about 20...75 damage.

Ryuken Tamashi · Nov 15, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

lol what Dean said. So meteor shower is even more powerful.

unholy guardian · Nov 15, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

i cannot agree with a class that needs any sort of ammo (the ingredients)

The Millard · Nov 15, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

i cannot agree with a class that needs any sort of ammo (the ingredients)

I didnt see anything about needing ammo or anything in this proffesion/

I think it looks pretty cool. I really dont know wut else to say because im not very good at concept classes

unholy guardian · Nov 16, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Millard

i cannot agree with a class that needs any sort of ammo (the ingredients)

I didnt see anything about needing ammo or anything in this proffesion/

I think it looks pretty cool. I really dont know wut else to say because im not very good at concept classes

Quote:

-Alchemy- This attribute will need an ingredient. However, so I don’t make this class all too complicated, there will only be four ingredients. These ingredients will randomly drop by ALL monsters. This will require you to pick up the ingredient, and then it will be received in the inventory section. You may buy different potions from the skill trainer, but you cannot activate the potion as if it were a skill. Instead, a small window will appear in combat, and it will list all the potions you currently have. From there, you pick your potion then drop it on the ground. To activate it, you need to click on the potion and you will receive its effects. The reason why I did that is so other party members can also pick it up. How do you “make” a potion? You can make the potion by clicking the potion you want to make in the skills list, (under alchemy section) then it will say the required ingredients, and if you have the right amount then it will be shown as green, if not then it will show as gray. You can see what ingredients it needs at the description section. NOTE: that you can only drop 1..2..3..4 potions at a time. And once that number is over you’ll face a cool-down of 60..50..40..30 seconds. And you can only make 5..8..12..15..18 potions.

er that's the thing i was talking about

BahamutKaiser · Nov 16, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

I'm just too tired of explaining the folly of guns. Paint it any way you want, guns replace ability with technology, and destroy the balance of feudal combat.

Dean Harper · Nov 16, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

i totally agree, guns dont belong in GW, unless its cannons on ships and things, which i know someone is gonna bring up.

Ryuken Tamashi · Nov 16, 2006, 06:49 AM // 06:49

well I knew that this class isn't gonna go anywere because of this gun issue (And I began to think about it half way through my Concept Class..but I decided to bring it out anyway) But I'll still argue with the fact that guns can be put in the game and won't change a thing. I mean look at WOW for example, you NEVER see the gun-bow issue...ever. And guns existed in Mideval times which I belive GW is set in. And what's the difference if blasts come out of a canon instead of your HANDS???..the guns sound a bit more logical. Well anyway I apreciate your feed back and I best not attempt another gun CC

But why is the engeneer so popular then?? that class has guns as well?

P.S-Aren't canons and ships MORE technology driven then guns?????????????????????????????????????????The chinese had gunpowder and used it on their arrows btw. IT's not like gunpowder came much much much after that.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 17, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

No, Ships have been around longer than good swords, back when spears and bows were the reliable weapons of battle, and a cannons have been around since ancient greece. Yes, Archemedies steam cannon has been reinvented and is recognized as on of the many outstanding contraptions which kept the greeks from defeating his province. A cannon takes far less technology, explosive devices in compact hand held form which are capable of actual use take much more skill and accuracy.

And though I didn't want to bother with this, I will entertain you since your not a moron. Adding guns isn't about unbalancing the game, Anet will make whatever they add balanced, and could make them weaker than throwing rocks, but in reality that isn't what happens, and adding guns to this fantasy destroys any continuity and realism of warriors charging with swords into battle.

You will notice that in the wake of guns, Samurai, Knights and any other form of melee combatant are reduced until they are totaly abandon, if you actually consider what the battle field looks like with the addition of guns, you realize that there are nothing but riflemen, artilerry, and perhaps some calvery, there are no charging warriors or anything of that nature.

But most of all, the average footsoldier becomes nothing more than a marksman with overnight combat training, even a child is deadly with a gun, the entire purpose of a gun is to replace ability with technology, combat loses its skilled and inspiring warrior kings who charge into battle with their men, and instead focuses on generals stragizing means of attack and possitioning. In a world with guns, all the talent and glory of combat is robbed and replaced with technology and strategy.

Lastly, in a world of magics, guns are not neccessary, the only difference is the ease at which a gun is learned and used compared to the skill and training of a magician, making farmers deadly adversaries, and reducing the scene of battle to who has the best firepower and strategy.

It isn't about adding guns and making a completely fake and ridiculous weakness to them to balance them out with other weapons, it is about maintaining the realism and continuity of the game. You could easily add Crossbows to have the exact same effect you propose for a gun, except it wouldn't be totaly fake and unreal for people to continue melee combat with skilled warriors instead of a row of marksmen.

I think my Favorite alchemist idea featured a slingshot (a real one, not the rubber band one), in which the alchemist would fling rocks at enemies for attack, and use skills which fling concoctions and bombs at enemies.

draxynnic · Nov 17, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Actually, handguns were around a good couple of centuries earlier than many people think. Early on, however, they were seen as inferior to longbows and crossbows due to the slow rate of fire (I believe there was a model in the 1300s that actually required two people to use - one to hold it up, and one to light the powder) inferior armour penetration (there was a period when one of the main tests of armour was to fire a bullet at it, the resulting dent being seen as proof of the armour's quality), poor accuracy, and expense (both in making the firearm itself and in providing gunpowder)

Even after muskets had replaced bows and crossbows as the ranged weapon of choice, it still took a while for them to become universal. Cavalry still had the same ability to ride down musketeers as they could longbowmen and crossbowmen, so pikemen survived until at least the 17th century in order to hold the cavalry off (even after pistols and carbines were invented for cavalry, for a good century or so they were inaccurate enough that keeping the horseman at pike's length could keep you fairly safe from his pistols). Lancers were used in the Napoleonic war, and sabre charges survived into World War 1 - obviously not in the European trench warfare, but it was used in less congested theatres such as in the Middle East by and against the Ottoman Empire.

The point I'm making is that there was no instantaneous switch from feudal warfare to every soldier on the battlefield being armed with a firearm. It was a gradual transition - the divide comes mostly because feudal times are romanticised while the period of European military history from the start of the Renaissance to World War 1 is largely ignored by popular culture.

Once the gun reached a certain point, it did certainly have the effect BK described - it isn't for nothing that it is often known as the "great equaliser", and even though cavalry and so on did survive, warfare as a whole did become more a question of strategy than individual heroism (hence that period being largely ignored by the media). However, during the later Middle Ages, handguns were certainly present - however, handgunners were simply seen as inferior or less practical to crossbowmen or well-trained longbowmen.

Which, if handguns were to be introduced, would be the way I'd be looking at introducing them - in the hands of a technophile class (as long as such a class was sufficiently distinct from a Ranger with traps and preparations, and the Elementalist with the old-fashioned way (at least for fantasy games) of making things go boom) with the gun itself being inferior to the Ranger's bow. Essentially, the role of the gun would be like the Paragon's spear - it gives the profession a weapon and a few tricks with that weapon, but ultimately, the handgunner's primary role is something other than shooting the enemy with the handgun. It then becomes a curiousity of the profession, but no threat to the Ranger's archery when looking for a non-magical ranged attack... at least, not for another century or so

.

On the profession itself...

I made the comment about overlapping with the Ranger before actually reading your skills, but knowing that traps and similar effects would be a likely threatened overlap point between the Ranger and a profession that uses gunpowder. Sure enough, you went there. While there are professions out there that take facets of an existing profession and expand it to a full profession concept (Ranger spirits for the Ritualist, warrior shouts for the Paragon, PBAOEs for the Dervish), I think the Ranger covers trapping well enough that we don't need another trapper. (Okay, maybe a little bit of trapping - because it's hard to see how a alchemist-focussed character wouldn't play with explosive traps at times - but it should be an occasional trick rather than a focus for the class.)

I don't see how hex manipulation as shown above fits the concept. Hexes are inherently magical, while this profession doesn't appear to be a spellcaster (even a hybrid spellcaster/warrior like the Assassin or Dervish). On a quick scan through, I don't think any of the purely non-spellcasting classes (Ranger, Warrior, Paragon) have any means to remove or manipulate hexes - the best they have are skills that help them survive until the hex wears off such as Melandru's Resiliance. Basically, it seems in order to remove, inflict, or transfer a hex, there has to be magic involved, and any magic this class works should be via potions rather than direct use. (This could, however, be worked with - you could, for instance, have a hex removal potion, or even a potion that can be applied to 'soak up' a hex and then used to annoint a bullet to deliver the hex to the next target you shoot. Consider carefully, however, anything that moves or removes more than one hex at a time - even Expel Hexes only does it two at a time, and that's elite.)

Fear appears to be against the principle of the game - there aren't any effects that remove control of a character from the player (well, apart from cutscenes...) and I think this is deliberate. Better would be a condition that encourages the character to run - say, one that slows down attack speed and skill use but increases movement speed.

Finally, I think having skills rely on inventory items is a bit clunky. A better system would probably be to have something that combines Soul Reaping and Adrenaline - each creature that dies within range charges up your potion skills to represent ingredients being quickly taken from the corpse. This could then be combined with a skill that allows you to exploit corpses in order to charge up your potion skills faster. (This could also open up an elixir of life as a semi-reusable res - it just takes a lot of ingredients to recharge.)

BahamutKaiser · Nov 17, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

It doesn't have to be an instantanious switch, it will switch, imagine the state of the future of GW if guns are a part of it?, there woln't be a future GW, because Guns take over and feudal combat ends. Even in your example, you already ruled out the swordsmen and feudal infantry, rifles are used and the battle reroutes to firing lines and calvery (which isn't in the game yet). Your description only supports my point.

Furthermore, what is the function of a gun if it is yet to outmatch a crossbow in reload, accuracy, even power. It isn't legitimate, it is like debating whether a Katana is acceptable before advanced forging techniques where developed to make them strong, comparing the weapon in developement isn't even a topic of discussion, that cannot be accepted.

In all realism, it is more effective for a feudal gunman to be using a mini cannon rather than a handgun, the extreme inaccuracy, lack of power (the first guns had far less penetrating power than an arrow) and extreme loading times make a single gunmen on a battlefield a joke as well as and insult. For that matter, why not just throw bombs? projectile weapons are probably not going to fire past the danger zone, so tell me how your guns are going to shoot projectiles which actually have any level of accuracy, in being a prototype weapon, Drop at a distance of less than 10 meters, and not deal any kind of useful or realistic damage. The end result is an undesirable weapon which would be worthless if it is in such an experimental stage as your suggest and only cheapen the background of GW. At which point any sort of gun is actually useful at all, your immediately step into the realm of replacement with firefighting instead of feudal combat. Guns ride a razor sharp line between begin unrealistic and unreasonable, to replacing combatants altogether. The whole image of a hero is skill and combat abilities, you start replacing that with technology and your directly blemishing the environment this game revolves around.

Unneeded, unrealistic, unreasonable, and determental to the image of GW as a whole, what do guns actually have to offer here?, accept that it follows every other mindless RPG which supposes guns in feudal combat and pretends they are just a modifided version of bow, it is plain retarded.

As I have said before, players running around as Dragons would be more common place than a bunch of musketeers pretending like they don't actually rewrite the whole reality of the game.

S_Sword101 · Nov 17, 2006, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Yes, Archemedies steam cannon has been reinvented and is recognized as on of the many outstanding contraptions which kept the greeks from defeating his province.

The Mythbusters tried this one TWICE, and they could only get it to work by using modern day technology which would not have been around back then.

actionjack · Nov 17, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

This question is directed to BahamutKaiser.

Don't take it as offense, but just wondering, which do you think would be more powerful.... a Dragon's Breath, Dragon's Bite, or a Musket fire? Say the victim is a heavily armor Warrior, which (on a logical base with realism as first for consideration) would seem to deal more damage?

draxynnic · Nov 17, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

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Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

It doesn't have to be an instantanious switch, it will switch, imagine the state of the future of GW if guns are a part of it?, there woln't be a future GW, because Guns take over and feudal combat ends. Even in your example, you already ruled out the swordsmen and feudal infantry, rifles are used and the battle reroutes to firing lines and calvery (which isn't in the game yet). Your description only supports my point.

Yes, it will switch. But will it switch in a time period where we'll see the switch in the game? It took a century or two for the handgun to go from a curiousity to becoming a dominant force on the battlefield - now, while the gap between Chapter 3 and Chapter 2 is bigger than between the first two, I think we've got room for quite a few chapters before we come to that point.

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Furthermore, what is the function of a gun if it is yet to outmatch a crossbow in reload, accuracy, even power. It isn't legitimate, it is like debating whether a Katana is acceptable before advanced forging techniques where developed to make them strong, comparing the weapon in developement isn't even a topic of discussion, that cannot be accepted.

You'll notice that I recommended that if a gun was to be introduced that it be done so as the weapon of a non-fighting class. One of the big advantages to the handgun was that it was fairly easy to learn - certainly compared to a longbow. So the actual soldiers are the Rangers with bows, but the handgun can be useful for someone whose training didn't have room for archery practise every Sunday.

The other element is that I recommended that if it was to be introduced, that it for a technophilic profession. Such a character may choose to use a handgun simply because they see it as the technological option, even if it is still seen as inferior to a bow in the hands of an expert. This is especially true if, as implied above, the gun-using profession was also busy doing something else and didn't have the time to learn to be a competant archer.

Essentially, the way I'd do it (and I'm not saying that if I was in charge that I would, just that I wouldn't necassarily throw it out without consideration) is as follows: First, I'd make it two-handed. Pistols and one-handed firearms in general, from memory, didn't really start showing up until well into the Renaissance. I'd make it do a little more damage than a bow and possibly give it the armour penetration of the hornbow (or maybe better), but I'd decrease the fire rate to achieve a slightly lower average damage. Range would be shortbow range or maybe a little shorter, to represent the lower accuracy. Finally, it would be on a profession like the Paragon whose main purpose on the battlefield isn't to deal damage with their weapon. Ranger NPCs may even make fun of firearms for being flashy and impractical, but agree that their wielders can be useful to have around.

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In all realism, it is more effective for a feudal gunman to be using a mini cannon rather than a handgun, the extreme inaccuracy, lack of power (the first guns had far less penetrating power than an arrow) and extreme loading times make a single gunmen on a battlefield a joke as well as and insult. For that matter, why not just throw bombs? projectile weapons are probably not going to fire past the danger zone, so tell me how your guns are going to shoot projectiles which actually have any level of accuracy, in being a prototype weapon, Drop at a distance of less than 10 meters, and not deal any kind of useful or realistic damage. The end result is an undesirable weapon which would be worthless if it is in such an experimental stage as your suggest and only cheapen the background of GW. At which point any sort of gun is actually useful at all, your immediately step into the realm of replacement with firefighting instead of feudal combat. Guns ride a razor sharp line between begin unrealistic and unreasonable, to replacing combatants altogether. The whole image of a hero is skill and combat abilities, you start replacing that with technology and your directly blemishing the environment this game revolves around.

What do you think the first handguns were? Even so, there was a century or so where the handgun was a viable alternative to its competitors - during which some units used them, some used crossbows, and some used longbows - between when it was essentially an experimental weapon and when they started taking over. Don't think of the last century where the face of warfare was revolutionised with every major conflict - back then, technological advance, and the changes brought by it, was a fairly slow and gradual process.

As for throwing bombs - well, I did say that the firearm-wielders should have something else to do (although that's competing with Elementalists if not done carefully). Directly, however, it was only the early cavalry pistols and carbines that were quite 'effective range shorter than a pike' inaccurate.

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Unneeded, unrealistic, unreasonable, and determental to the image of GW as a whole, what do guns actually have to offer here?, accept that it follows every other mindless RPG which supposes guns in feudal combat and pretends they are just a modifided version of bow, it is plain retarded.

So, mechanically, how would it not be a modified version of a bow? According to game mechanics, a projectile or thrown weapon has range, projectile speed, damage, refire rate, and not very many other characteristics than that. In the case of the gun, one change could be to remove the projectile and make it instantaneous, but otherwise, it is going to be range, damage, and refire rate*.

Besides, how do you think late medieval military commanders viewed handguns? Consider that the name of the arquebus - the predecessor of the musket - translates to 'bow with a mouth'.

Does GW need firearms? The answer is clearly no. But would their introduction destroy the setting? Well, it might stretch the suspension of disbelief if the timeline was then advanced a few centuries and people were still using medieval fighting methods, but without such dramatic chronological shifts, the answer is no.

*Refire rate, not the socialogical or military implications, is probably the main reason why I, personally, would think hard on whether guns are worth introducing. Until well into the 1800s, rates of fire of around five shots per round were typical - and that's a lot of downtime between shots. For the purpose of the game, this could be reduced (as I think they have been with bows and throwing spears, although I haven't seriously trained in either so I may be wrong) but the amount of time spent reloading a semi-historically-accurate handgun could be a significant dampener to its viability as a weapon.